Help!

[morsla]

I think I'm in for a far more expensive few months than I'd planned for - instead of just replacing a camera, I've finally reached the point where I need to upgrade my PC (both the five-year-old hardware, and my copy of Creative Suite 1).

As someone who hasn't been into a computer store in the last five years, and doesn't know the difference between most of the bits inside a PC case... I'm looking for recommendations on what to buy, or at least where to buy it from.

Things I need to use a computer for:
- InDesign CS3, Photoshop CS3 Extended, MS Word and Acrobat 8, typically all at the same time.
- The omnipresent broadband, via Firefox
- The equally omnipresent music player

Things I'm unlikely to use the computer for:
- Gaming
- Watching films/TV/etc

I also have a list of CS3's system requirements:

* Intel Pentium 4, Intel Centrino, Intel Xeon, or Intel Core™ Duo (or compatible) processor
* Windows XP with Service Pack 2 or Windows Vista™ Home Premium, Business, Ultimate, or Enterprise (certified for 32-bit editions)
* 1GB of RAM
* 5GB of available hard-disk space (additional free space required during installation)
* 1,024x768 monitor resolution with 16-bit video card
* DVD-ROM drive
* QuickTime 7.1.2 software required for multimedia features
* Some 3D features in Adobe Photoshop® CS3 Extended require a Microsoft DirectX 9 capable graphics card with at least 64MB of VRAM

The only thing in desperate need of an upgrade is the box - my monitor can wait until I have more money available, and all the other peripherals are fine. I have a budget of about $1000 for the computer (making it cheaper than the upgrade to CS3 Design Premium, at ~$1200).

My preference at the moment is to buy a ready to use system, from a store with decent customer service, and a warranty for parts and labour - it's a work machine, so any problems need to be fixed quickly, and I don't have the technical expertise to fix them myself. If you can recommend a good store (or if you think I should consider a different option), I'd love to hear your thoughts...

Comments

Get thee a Mini

[delwyn.livejournal.com]

Given those requirements, the budget and the desire to have a contained system, I'd recommend a Mac Mini. With Boot Camp it's a simple matter to install Windows on Intel-based Apple hardware.

Here's some positive comments about people using Mac Mini's for Photoshop CS3 - their recommendation is to make sure you kit out the box with enough RAM and it'll run fine.

Re: Get thee a Mini

[delwyn.livejournal.com]

Plus of course you could go for the native Mac OS X version of Photoshop CS3 if you prefer...

Re: Get thee a Mini

[morsla.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure that my CS1 (PC) licence will let me upgrade to the OSX version - the upgrade price is the only reason I can afford to think about CS3, as a full version costs more arms and legs than I can manage to gather up.

Re: Get thee a Mini

[sols-light.livejournal.com]

I can ask Mum where she got her copies as she or someone else may be able to plead Academic Discount on your behalf, or she may have some strange deal going with RMIT's Multimedia & Design department that could help you out.

[aeduna.livejournal.com]

That's plenty. I'm looking at www.cpl.net.au and one of their base systems has that hardware for around $500 . I don't necessarily recommend them if you need a fast response on problems, they push you at the manufacturor when things go wrong, but they are cheap (and in West Melbourne).

[harkon.livejournal.com]

I second CPL. I've never had a problem with them myself, but a friend of mine said they took a while to get a manufacturer's warranty on a high end gaming motherboard. If you are buying a complete system though, you shouldn't have the same problem since you will be using parts which are relatively plentiful.

Also, the point that they are close to home is a compelling reason IMO.

[virtual-munkee.livejournal.com]

yeah, if u are using a comp for design purposes mainly, as well as music, a mac would be the way to go! :)

[morsla.livejournal.com]

Why is that? I've heard it said before, but never known why... these days they both use Intel processors, and both run iTunes - so what sort of performance difference is there?

I can see the advantage in having all the components designed to work together, but I'm also weighing it up against the hours of frustration I've spent using Macs at work - I rely heavily on that missing mouse button in InDesign :)

[delwyn.livejournal.com]

So don't use an Apple mouse ;) (I'm not a fan of their mice either - more buttons for the win!)

[arienmir.livejournal.com]

You can always use a mighty mouse... that's right boys and girls Mac's have mice with two buttons and a scroll wheel/ball now. One day they may even catch up to a PC's number of avaliable clicky bits!

Though to be honest I find any more three buttons cofusing :)

[morsla.livejournal.com]

Okay, so I've only used other people's Macs before ;)

In other news, I've just scanned through a dozen "are Macs better for design work" pages, and it seems to be the same debate I've seen anywhere platforms are discussed. I might as well ask a catholic and a moslem which religion is better...

[jilavre.livejournal.com]

or ask any two muslims anywhere when ramadan (sp?) actually ends ;)

[harkon.livejournal.com]

From my limited experience, in part it is because of Apple software playing nicely with Mac hardware. I suspect the design industry favours Apple in part because it looks good and in part because everyone else in industry uses Apple. The latter reason plays well into the fact that overall Apple software costs are lower than for a PC. However, if you know how to use those listed programs already, you have little reason to try to relearn any cheaper Apple analogues. While Apple had a better design suite in the past, most of the things you've listed there are made by Adobe, which generally favours a Windows environment. Basically in the end, comparing performance is rather moot these days for similar computers running similar applications.

[morsla.livejournal.com]

That seems to be the view that comes out of most forum debates - Apple is widely considered the designer's platform because that a lot of designers use it, and not because of any advantage in hardware or software. That's still important in some cases (font standardisation), but as I generally output PDF files it doesn't really affect me.

Most of what I need the computer for involves Adobe Creative Suite software in one form or another, which I already own (and know how to use) on PC.

Any thoughts on CPL vs. any of the other stores out there? West Melbourne is close to home, and their prices seem good.

[harkon.livejournal.com]

MSY and Centre.com are both cheaper, at MSY you get exactly zero service so I don't really recommend it to anyone looking for anything other than parts although I do use MSY myself a fair bit. Centre.com is another place I go to fairly often, sometimes it is quite cheap and they are quite organised for a super cheap computer store, they have several staff memember on at the front desk you and take a ticket when you arrive. It is a little out of the way now that I'm in Kensington, but before Rachael left on her big trip we made the trek (she left from Thornbury) to take advantage of cheap storage they had for sale.

I had a look at everyone's prebuilt systems and it is disappointing that most aren't selling high end computers without Windows or a monitor. Both CPL and Centre.com also build to order, giving a 1-3 years labor warranty above the manufacturer's warranty, charging around $70 for assembly, testing and the warranty. The reason I think this is the better way to go is that the sweetspot of quad core Intels are only a bit more than the equivalent dual core and it sounds like you will actually take advantage of the higher end chip (ie when running multiple apps instead of one demanding one such as a game). The other reason is that often these prebuilt systems use the cheapest power supplies, which vary in quality, stability and efficiency. I find the investment in a third party power supply well worth the cost as they are often the first things to go in a well maintained computer. If you'd like, I can talk to you about specs at MindGames on Friday.

One decision that you'll have to think about is how much RAM you want. 32-bit (standard) versions of Windows will only be able to see 3gig of RAM, which may or may not be enough for your purposes. Anything about that you'll need a 64-bit verision of the OS. The problem here is the 64-bit XP Pro is one of the least supported OSes around, I've recently had to go back to the standard XP Pro because a number of newer things I was getting (both hardware and software) had no support and none planned in the future. Compatability for 64-bit XP has gone backwards in my experience, whereas Microsoft requires anything running on Vista to run on both versions. I'm not a big fan of Vista myself, but then again my needs differ from yours, for example current networking issues might not bother you since you have no interest in running a networked media centre.

You should ask Louise about what licensing is available from school. When I was working at the school, staff were allowed one license for any version of Windows except Vista Ultimate and any version of Office for home use. I'm not sure if that was something organised on a local basis or is state wide. If the deal is still running, you basically only pay for the price of the media if you buy it from the Government contractor, otherwise you just ask the school IT person for appropriate license keys and registration details.

[morsla.livejournal.com]

Sure - talking about specs at Mind Games sounds like the way to go. From looking at each store's website (my head still hurts after MSY's) it looks like I'd be better off getting them to build a system... as long as I know what to ask for. It's a nice tradeoff between cheap parts and expensive prebuilt computers, while keeping a labour warranty in there.

I haven't seen any compelling reasons to use Vista, yet. XP Pro seems like the better option, simply because it's been around longer - better driver support, and most of the bugs have been found.

I'm unlikely to use (or afford!) more than 3GB RAM, although Photoshop will cheerfully use up to 2GB for big tasks.

Regarding Jye's comment below, Photoshop seems to make better use of a good processor, rather than putting more money into the graphics card (based on this blog post).

on the pc front...

[delwyn.livejournal.com]

Yeah, if you want to spec your own system for a store to build, go with a quad-core CPU and as much RAM as you can put in it. The apps you're using will take advantage of the additional power.

For graphics card, something in the nVidia Qudro FX line would be a good choice. The GeForce and (ATI) Radeon lines are designed for games performance, so don't spend too much if you go for one of them.

As for OS, XP is preferable to Vista IMO. (My rule of thumb is that it's generally safest to use the n-1 version of Windows *grin*)

MSY has great prices, but I only buy from there if I'm going to be assembling it myself, and I order ahead of time so that I only need to go in to pay/collect - even then, it's not unusual having to wait an hour or more for service on a Saturday. Centrecom has good prices, and their sales service is good too. I've been in their Sunshine store when other people have brought systems in for repair, and they've at the very least appeared interested in fixing faults...

Re: on the pc front...

[carlos-v-b.livejournal.com]

Um, are you sure he'll be able to get that for a $1000?

Quad cores have gone down since I got mine, yes, but I still think getting a quad core with oodles of (decent speed) RAM for under 1K is stretching it.

I'd also recommend looking at the finer details to see whether a decently priced Quadro will get you anything more than a comparatively priced GeForce will (plus a same price GeForce will benefit morsla a lot more when it comes time to whip out the games)

Re: on the pc front...

[delwyn.livejournal.com]

From the current MSY price list:

Core 2 Duo E6850 $339
Core 2 Quad Q6600 $339

Low end Quadro cards seem to be in the $320-$450 price range. Yes, it will depend on what he's wanting to use the system for, but you'll note in the list of requirements in the original post that gaming was on the "unlikely to do" list.

Re: on the pc front...

[carlos-v-b.livejournal.com]

Woah. They really have fallen in price. Well, that'll teach me not to do my research.

I'm still not entirely convinced on the graphics card; but now that's from a "Spend more on the RAM" angle.

Re: on the pc front...

[delwyn.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I agree that including 2+ Gb of RAM should be the priority. It's just important to know that there are graphics cards out there that are actually designed for graphics-workers and not just gamers ;) As it's not really my field, I can't comment on the price/performance value of those cards - morsla will need to read up on them and decide if the feature set they provide will be of use and also worth the price.

[lena-supercat.livejournal.com]

I've bought both of my previous computers from MSY (www.msy.com.au) - it seems to be as cheap or cheaper than CPL. I don't think the lack of service is a problem when buying a system from them, since I was in a similar situation as you, knowing next to nothing about computer parts, so I just bought one of the system packages each time, with a few minor changes from their options list. As long as you know what specifications you want, you can just pick a system from the available options.

By the way, they will allow you to make changes to a system package other than those listed in the "optional upgrades". For example, you can add a TV tuner, or extra monitor, or whatever, just ask when you order the computer. Asking for a better power supply would probably be a good idea, as harkon said.

[fetnas.livejournal.com]

The truth of the matter is ther is very little to separate a Mac and a PC now days. In the past when the two were using different chips and the software was vastly different there was a differance ib the way the machines handeled different tasks. Now days it's mostly about user interface and hardware design as both Mac and PC are extremely powerful in computing power terms.

As you are a unique indivdual who is both creative and scientific, you would be able to use both systems but if I was you I'd stick with PC so you didn't have to learn a new interface. I know that what annoys me the most, even when Microsoft brings out a new office and moves everthing around.

I can also recommend cpl, no frills but good prices. Also try to get a system with XP instead of Vista, there are still compatabilitie issues with many application under Vista. I'm not sure if CS3 is fully vista compliant but looking how the educational version has worked on my XP machine I imagine there could be quite a few problems.

I'm not a fan of how the creative suite has been programmed.

Give me a call if you want some more detailed info.

[bishi-wannabe.livejournal.com]

I went to ePower in Lonsdale St for the computers Becka and I are using, and they were really good. They also did a repair for me on another system qucikly, cheaply and well. I think they're great, but I've never used cpl so I can't compare them.

Regardless, I paid $1000 for the non-videocard bits of our systems, and they blow those system requirements away. $500 seems about right for them, though if you can afford it I suggest bumping up to 2 gig RAM. A higher end processor or videocard might be good, I don't really know what parts of a system the Adobe system puts the most load on, other than RAM which will definitely help cope with massive layout and image files.

As for Mac vs PC...I don't think it really matters these days. Both OSX and XP are good operating systems, Adobe publishes on both, they both run on intel chips anyway, WoW runs on both...:) PC will probably get you more bang for your buck, Apple will be a more polished total solution.

[fetnas.livejournal.com]

Basically go for the best video card you can manage and the most RAM as Adobe will chew up these resources.

[delwyn.livejournal.com]

For design work you don't need a particularly powerful graphics cards - they're for the gaming sector (unless you're talking nVidia Quadros or equivalent, for animation)

[rendragon.livejournal.com]

If you do decide to go down the Mac path, Mikee has a sales rep contact for Mac now and can probably wrangle you a better-than-retail price for the box. Good luck!

[(Anonymous)]

I still have my CS3 disks (for Mac) in the box they came in - it was about $300 for it, and I haven't really used it yet because I'm not entirely sure how it works . . .

Maybe you can use mine?

[(Anonymous)]

By the way, that message was from me (Bethany) - I've never used this while livejournal thing before, but I am a recent convert to the Facebook.

[sols-light.livejournal.com]

If you want another place to check out for comparative pricing and what I know to be excellent service, Scorptec are good, but they have the issue of being based in Clayton which is a problem if you should happen to need repairs.

That said, after theere was a payment screwup withthe bank not putting the Serial number for the order on the deposit into the account, they had the item delivered to our house ahead of when they said it would be there, which always impresses me immensely.

[sols-light.livejournal.com]

www.scorptec.com.au to make it easier to find them.

Also, I have shopped at CPL a few times for various components, the staff did know enough to tell me what to use and what not to use on my Current Motherboard, ensuring i didn't buy the wrong type of RAM, which was good of them. The only complaint I have is tht they are often busy and getting served is a matter of at least a 10 minute wait most of the time and I have had no reason to seek actual service from them. I would certainly be happy to buy a premade system from them, despite the slightly annoying way their website is laid out for looking at parts and systems.

Also, with all the things people have said about Graphics Cards, I haven't seen one importnt thing. It is possible to get two cheaper graphics cards on the right Motherboard to run in parallel with each other (Like the Core 2 Duo Chips) This ability relies on you getting two of exactly the same graphics card on a Motherboard that can support it (Tech guys you're buying from will be able to suggest a good Motherboard here). You then link the two graphics cards for some monumental output. This is what Mum is currently using for her 3D builds on her work Machine for Maya and also Illustrator, Photoshop and Premiere with her Multimedia and Design Course.

Two midrange cards, say two nVidia 8600GT would easily equal the performance of some of the highest end graphics cards, for around half the cost, (less than $400 for the two, since i bought mine for $169 from CPL. You then buy an SLI Connector to link the two (ATi Cards use a Connector called Crossfire, same doohickey, different branding) and the two graphics cards will run in tandem, helping out a lot with apps like Photoshopwhich are smart enough to take advantage of them.

With what people have been saying about the Chip you want, Core2 Duos are the most usefully supported for CS3 in terms of making good use of having 2 chips, it will take the next generation of CS to make full use of Quad Core technology, so whether you will be upgrading again then, should be taken into account for Futureproofing. Also, most stores are having lots of trouble keeping QuadCore in stock, because it is new and hip.

My recommendation, based on the cpl.net.au stuff they use inthe Green Guide would be to go with something like their E6550 Box, but tell them you want to use it for Graphic Design and that you're thinking of possibly putting in two 8600GTs. They will then recommend a motherboard that will suit that and all up, getting the best Chip you can and two graphics cards along with at least 2 GB of RAM, possibly even 4GB should be around $1000 for the box.

Rough guide to my recommendations:
Motherboard: Able to support 2 Graphics Cards, a Core2 Duo chip and Lots of DDR2 RAM.
Chip: At least a Core2 Duo, as fast as you can get it
RAM: At least 2GB, more is always good. I have Kingston, because they used to be the best, not sure they still are, but they're good.
Graphics Card: 2 x the same Graphics Card (Gigabyte 8600GT is running well in my machine)
DVD Drive: Everything comes with a DVD writer these days, I don't think you need 2 for easy disk backup, but you might.
Network: Gigabit LAN is fast but still not well supported for use with ADSL stuff, as far as I'm aware, so 10/100, the older ones should still be fine, once again, futureproofing good if it's in the budget.
Hard Drive: Up to you if your current one still does the job, since you'll undoubtedly be hanging onto it. Otherwise Larger is better and Western Digital and Seagate are both good brands.
Power Supply: Make sure they know your power supply can handle what's running in there at the moment and has enough wattage to spare for future upgrades. Any modern case should do this fine and the ones built by a store will probably be around 500W


I'm assuming you're happy with your current Keyboard, mouse and other peripherals, because retailers will usually knock a bit off for buying a whole system from them, although Computer price Margins are slim, so it won't be too much.

Sorry to get longwinded, but I hope the rough guide helps, anyone else reading this can make better recommendations than me on quite a few things, but for budget graphics Card power, running 2 in tandem is really good for Photoshop.